EVE Search - New drones, modules and what not

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Tiny Carlos	Posted - 2005.11.02 12:32:00 - [1] [Insert bit about not having read 28 pages here] Vex before changes with top skill can use 10 heavy, or 15 mediums at 80% of the damage and have spares. After the changes it can use 5 heavy hitting with the damage of 15, or 5 medimus also hitting with the damage of 15. So the Vex, a cruiser gets buffed (+50% damage) for heavies but gains nothing on mediums...just seems a bit wierd, but I won't complain I have a Vex BPO Oh, and the small Ewar drones for the most part look as pointless as other small drones (may be usefull if you have 5m3 drone bay...maybe), It might be worth just recycling them like the rest of us and saving a bit of time for something usefull
Tiny Carlos Brutor tribe	Posted - 2005.11.02 12:32:00 - [2] [Insert bit about not having read 28 pages here] Vex before changes with top skill can use 10 heavy, or 15 mediums at 80% of the damage and have spares. After the changes it can use 5 heavy hitting with the damage of 15, or 5 medimus also hitting with the damage of 15. So the Vex, a cruiser gets buffed (+50% damage) for heavies but gains nothing on mediums...just seems a bit wierd, but I won't complain I have a Vex BPO Oh, and the small Ewar drones for the most part look as pointless as other small drones (may be usefull if you have 5m3 drone bay...maybe), It might be worth just recycling them like the rest of us and saving a bit of time for something usefull "Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." - Groucho Marx
Tiny Carlos	Posted - 2005.11.02 14:28:00 - [3] Edited by: Tiny Carlos on 02/11/2005 14:29:21 Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Tiny Carlos [Insert bit about not having read 28 pages here] Vex before changes with top skill can use 10 heavy, or 15 mediums at 80% of the damage and have spares. After the changes it can use 5 heavy hitting with the damage of 15, or 5 medimus also hitting with the damage of 15. So the Vex, a cruiser gets buffed (+50% damage) for heavies but gains nothing on mediums...just seems a bit wierd, but I won't complain I have a Vex BPO Oh, and the small Ewar drones for the most part look as pointless as other small drones (may be usefull if you have 5m3 drone bay...maybe), It might be worth just recycling them like the rest of us and saving a bit of time for something usefull You wont be able to hold 5 heavies in your dronebay :) Vex dronebay = 250 250 / 2 = 125 5x heavy drone = 125 Unless heavy drones have been made bigger I'll be using 5 heavies. edited typo
Tiny Carlos Brutor tribe	Posted - 2005.11.02 14:28:00 - [4] Edited by: Tiny Carlos on 02/11/2005 15:26:28 edited typo edited for being plain wrong "Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." - Groucho Marx
Tiny Carlos	Posted - 2005.11.02 15:27:00 - [5] Originally by: Ebedar Originally by: Tiny Carlos Edited by: Tiny Carlos on 02/11/2005 14:29:35 Vex dronebay = 250 250 / 2 = 125 5x heavy drone = 125 Unless heavy drones have been made bigger I'll be using 5 heavies. edited typo Vexor currently has 150 m3 drone bay. yeah I worked that out myself
Tiny Carlos Brutor tribe	Posted - 2005.11.02 15:27:00 - [6] Originally by: Ebedar Originally by: Tiny Carlos Edited by: Tiny Carlos on 02/11/2005 14:29:35 Vex dronebay = 250 250 / 2 = 125 5x heavy drone = 125 Unless heavy drones have been made bigger I'll be using 5 heavies. edited typo Vexor currently has 150 m3 drone bay. yeah I worked that out myself "Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." - Groucho Marx
Tiny Carlos	Posted - 2005.11.02 16:53:00 - [7] One (of the many) things I don't like about this change is that it uses Drone interfacing to balance the smaller drone bays. OK drones were never much good untill you reached drones lvl 5, where you suddenly get damage bonuses, heavies and more drones, but making this gap even wider dosn't seem good. Untill you pass drones level 5, all non specialist drone using ships will be doing half the damage with drones. It takes DI 5 to balance the damage with these smaller ships (or lvl 4 for the ships with odd sized drone bays that get rounded up). So for Battleships and specialist droneships things stay about the same (with new stuff), for the smaller ships and the noobs things look alot uglier (with not very good new stuff, 3 x 0.3 ecm ph34r teh imicus).
Tiny Carlos Brutor tribe	Posted - 2005.11.02 16:53:00 - [8] One (of the many) things I don't like about this change is that it uses Drone interfacing to balance the smaller drone bays. OK drones were never much good untill you reached drones lvl 5, where you suddenly get damage bonuses, heavies and more drones, but making this gap even wider dosn't seem good. Untill you pass drones level 5, all non specialist drone using ships will be doing half the damage with drones. It takes DI 5 to balance the damage with these smaller ships (or lvl 4 for the ships with odd sized drone bays that get rounded up). So for Battleships and specialist droneships things stay about the same (with new stuff), for the smaller ships and the noobs things look alot uglier (with not very good new stuff, 3 x 0.3 ecm ph34r teh imicus). "Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." - Groucho Marx
Tiny Carlos Brutor tribe	Posted - 2005.11.02 17:20:00 - [9] Originally by: Jim Raynor Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux So the drone carriers will have their +1 drone controlled per level changed to: -> +10% drone damage per level -> +10% drone mining yield per level -> +10% to drone hitpoints ? that's one hell of a ship bonus. And even then the Domis 5 Ewar drones aren't any more effective than The Armas 5 It's a bit of a mess tbh. "Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." - Groucho Marx
Tiny Carlos	Posted - 2005.11.02 18:08:00 - [10] If you look at Drone Interfacing as a skill now, ignoring what it is beeing changed to balance, it's freakishly overpowered. It had some of this effect before but only on really big drone bays, not for every single droneuser. Any skill giving +20% damage to anything looks wrong, but +20% mining as well, I know this is supposed to be for balance, but you don't superglue a sheep to one hand to balance the bags you have in the other.
Tiny Carlos Brutor tribe	Posted - 2005.11.02 18:08:00 - [11] If you look at Drone Interfacing as a skill now, ignoring what it is beeing changed to balance, it's freakishly overpowered. It had some of this effect before but only on really big drone bays, not for every single droneuser. Any skill giving +20% damage to anything looks wrong, but +20% mining as well, I know this is supposed to be for balance, but you don't superglue a sheep to one hand to balance the bags you have in the other. "Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." - Groucho Marx
Tiny Carlos	Posted - 2005.11.02 22:26:00 - [12] Originally by: Jim Raynor Originally by: Tiny Carlos Originally by: Jim Raynor Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux So the drone carriers will have their +1 drone controlled per level changed to: -> +10% drone damage per level -> +10% drone mining yield per level -> +10% to drone hitpoints ? that's one hell of a ship bonus. And even then the Domis 5 Ewar drones aren't any more effective than The Armas 5 It's a bit of a mess tbh. Perhaps not but the Dominix won't need as many Ewar drones because in my opinion, it has a superior slot layout compared to the Armageddon. The only reason the Dominix isn't completely superior to the Armageddon is the fact pulse lasers are better than railguns, plain and simple. Stacking penalty nerf might even it out a bit. My point wans't that the Domi needed better EW drones compared to the Arma, but that replacing a bounus to all drones with "a bounus for combat drones....ah, and mining drones....and and well need more HP as well", is getting messy and needs a proper re-think.
Tiny Carlos Brutor tribe	Posted - 2005.11.02 22:26:00 - [13] Originally by: Jim Raynor Originally by: Tiny Carlos Originally by: Jim Raynor Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux So the drone carriers will have their +1 drone controlled per level changed to: -> +10% drone damage per level -> +10% drone mining yield per level -> +10% to drone hitpoints ? that's one hell of a ship bonus. And even then the Domis 5 Ewar drones aren't any more effective than The Armas 5 It's a bit of a mess tbh. Perhaps not but the Dominix won't need as many Ewar drones because in my opinion, it has a superior slot layout compared to the Armageddon. The only reason the Dominix isn't completely superior to the Armageddon is the fact pulse lasers are better than railguns, plain and simple. Stacking penalty nerf might even it out a bit. My point wans't that the Domi needed better EW drones compared to the Arma, but that replacing a bounus to all drones with "a bounus for combat drones....ah, and mining drones....and and well need more HP as well", is getting messy and needs a proper re-think. "Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." - Groucho Marx
Tiny Carlos	Posted - 2005.11.02 22:33:00 - [14] Originally by: Clavius XIV Edited by: Clavius XIV on 02/11/2005 18:50:25 Edited by: Clavius XIV on 02/11/2005 18:49:03 Originally by: Tiny Carlos If you look at Drone Interfacing as a skill now, ignoring what it is beeing changed to balance, it's freakishly overpowered. It had some of this effect before but only on really big drone bays, not for every single droneuser. This is actually an excellent point. Its a good thing that the intial proposal is being adjusted to insure that drone specialists in drone ships don't do less damage/mining than before. However for ships with less than 100m3 dronebay,this represents a significant dps boost. In the best case, take the Prophecy, which with the current 50m^3 dronebay can currently launch 2 heavies or 5 mediums. A Prophecy pilot with drone interfacing or drones V does exactly the same max dps currently. (could launch 10 lights, but they do less damage than 5 mediums). With the changes a prophecy pilot can doublecurrent maximum possible drone.. .. You missed the point there, the balace between what damage ships will do with drones now and after the change is OK (sortof, if you ignore frigs for noobs, like tux did), it's how it's achived that is the problem. Picure yourself a newish player looking at drone skills, you got +5% per lvl range on scout, +%5 mining there, +5% damage on Heavy drones, +5% speed on drone nav and...WTF! +20% damage and +20% mining on one skill! It's obviously got problems.
Tiny Carlos Brutor tribe	Posted - 2005.11.02 22:33:00 - [15] Originally by: Clavius XIV Edited by: Clavius XIV on 02/11/2005 18:50:25 Edited by: Clavius XIV on 02/11/2005 18:49:03 Originally by: Tiny Carlos If you look at Drone Interfacing as a skill now, ignoring what it is beeing changed to balance, it's freakishly overpowered. It had some of this effect before but only on really big drone bays, not for every single droneuser. This is actually an excellent point. Its a good thing that the intial proposal is being adjusted to insure that drone specialists in drone ships don't do less damage/mining than before. However for ships with less than 100m3 dronebay,this represents a significant dps boost. In the best case, take the Prophecy, which with the current 50m^3 dronebay can currently launch 2 heavies or 5 mediums. A Prophecy pilot with drone interfacing or drones V does exactly the same max dps currently. (could launch 10 lights, but they do less damage than 5 mediums). With the changes a prophecy pilot can doublecurrent maximum possible drone.. .. You missed the point there, the balace between what damage ships will do with drones now and after the change is OK (sortof, if you ignore frigs for noobs, like tux did), it's how it's achived that is the problem. Picure yourself a newish player looking at drone skills, you got +5% per lvl range on scout, +%5 mining there, +5% damage on Heavy drones, +5% speed on drone nav and...WTF! +20% damage and +20% mining on one skill! It's obviously got problems. "Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." - Groucho Marx
Tiny Carlos	Posted - 2005.11.02 22:59:00 - [16] Quote: I liked swarms... they looked awesome in action dont you think? This makes a point I think, drone ships having more drones was part of their style, like the rifters speed bonus. Even if you can work the numbers so things balance out, the style has gone, and that's important.
Tiny Carlos Brutor tribe	Posted - 2005.11.02 22:59:00 - [17] Quote: I liked swarms... they looked awesome in action dont you think? This makes a point I think, drone ships having more drones was part of their style, like the rifters speed bonus. Even if you can work the numbers so things balance out, the style has gone, and that's important. "Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." - Groucho Marx
Tiny Carlos	Posted - 2005.11.02 23:05:00 - [18] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Tiny Carlos Originally by: Clavius XIV Edited by: Clavius XIV on 02/11/2005 18:50:25 Edited by: Clavius XIV on 02/11/2005 18:49:03 Originally by: Tiny Carlos If you look at Drone Interfacing as a skill now, ignoring what it is beeing changed to balance, it's freakishly overpowered. It had some of this effect before but only on really big drone bays, not for every single droneuser. This is actually an excellent point. Its a good thing that the intial proposal is being adjusted to insure that drone specialists in drone ships don't do less damage/mining than before. However for ships with less than 100m3 dronebay,this represents a significant dps boost. In the best case, take the Prophecy, which with the current 50m^3 dronebay can currently launch 2 heavies or 5 mediums. A Prophecy pilot with drone interfacing or drones V does exactly the same max dps currently. (could launch 10 lights, but they do less damage than 5 mediums). With the changes a prophecy pilot can doublecurrent maximum possible drone.. .. You missed the point there, the balace between what damage ships will do with drones now and after the change is OK (sortof, if you ignore frigs for noobs, like tux did), it's how it's achived that is the problem. Picure yourself a newish player looking at drone skills, you got +5% per lvl range on scout, +%5 mining there, +5% damage on Heavy drones, +5% speed on drone nav and...WTF! +20% damage and +20% mining on one skill! It's obviously got problems. Not at all. It's a rank 5 skill. Heavy drone ops is the preq for T2 heavy drones, which is fine too. Large Guns - Rank 5 + 5% Cruise Missile - Rank 5 +5% Surgical Strike - Rank 3 +3% Large Autocannon Spec. - Rank 8 +2% Drone Interfacing - Rank 5 +20% (and mining) it fit's in so neatly with the other damage related skills ;/
Tiny Carlos Brutor tribe	Posted - 2005.11.02 23:05:00 - [19] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Tiny Carlos Originally by: Clavius XIV Edited by: Clavius XIV on 02/11/2005 18:50:25 Edited by: Clavius XIV on 02/11/2005 18:49:03 Originally by: Tiny Carlos If you look at Drone Interfacing as a skill now, ignoring what it is beeing changed to balance, it's freakishly overpowered. It had some of this effect before but only on really big drone bays, not for every single droneuser. This is actually an excellent point. Its a good thing that the intial proposal is being adjusted to insure that drone specialists in drone ships don't do less damage/mining than before. However for ships with less than 100m3 dronebay,this represents a significant dps boost. In the best case, take the Prophecy, which with the current 50m^3 dronebay can currently launch 2 heavies or 5 mediums. A Prophecy pilot with drone interfacing or drones V does exactly the same max dps currently. (could launch 10 lights, but they do less damage than 5 mediums). With the changes a prophecy pilot can doublecurrent maximum possible drone.. .. You missed the point there, the balace between what damage ships will do with drones now and after the change is OK (sortof, if you ignore frigs for noobs, like tux did), it's how it's achived that is the problem. Picure yourself a newish player looking at drone skills, you got +5% per lvl range on scout, +%5 mining there, +5% damage on Heavy drones, +5% speed on drone nav and...WTF! +20% damage and +20% mining on one skill! It's obviously got problems. Not at all. It's a rank 5 skill. Heavy drone ops is the preq for T2 heavy drones, which is fine too. Large Guns - Rank 5 + 5% Cruise Missile - Rank 5 +5% Surgical Strike - Rank 3 +3% Large Autocannon Spec. - Rank 8 +2% Drone Interfacing - Rank 5 +20% (and mining) it fit's in so neatly with the other damage related skills ;/ "Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." - Groucho Marx
Tiny Carlos	Posted - 2005.11.03 07:37:00 - [20] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Tiny Carlos Quote: I liked swarms... they looked awesome in action dont you think? This makes a point I think, drone ships having more drones was part of their style, like the rifters speed bonus. Even if you can work the numbers so things balance out, the style has gone, and that's important. No, style means nothing for balance. The rifter needs its speed because of the weapons it carrys. The new rifter, well, I for one will be packing a nano. Lol, I notice you didn't awnser my post replying to yours 0.o Anyway with style being totaly non-important lets just make all the ships the same, balance will be perfect then. We have races they have their styles, without style games become boring and mechanical.
Tiny Carlos Brutor tribe	Posted - 2005.11.03 07:37:00 - [21] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Tiny Carlos Quote: I liked swarms... they looked awesome in action dont you think? This makes a point I think, drone ships having more drones was part of their style, like the rifters speed bonus. Even if you can work the numbers so things balance out, the style has gone, and that's important. No, style means nothing for balance. The rifter needs its speed because of the weapons it carrys. The new rifter, well, I for one will be packing a nano. Lol, I notice you didn't awnser my post replying to yours 0.o Anyway with style being totaly non-important lets just make all the ships the same, balance will be perfect then. We have races they have their styles, without style games become boring and mechanical. "Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." - Groucho Marx
Tiny Carlos	Posted - 2005.11.03 10:12:00 - [22] Edited by: Tiny Carlos on 03/11/2005 10:12:19 Edit: miss post
Tiny Carlos Brutor tribe	Posted - 2005.11.03 10:12:00 - [23] Edited by: Tiny Carlos on 03/11/2005 10:12:19 Edit: miss post "Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." - Groucho Marx
Tiny Carlos	Posted - 2005.11.03 11:05:00 - [24] Quote: This was NERVER an idea of a game-developer. This was an idea of the management. I think the management at CCP are the devs, it's not a big opperation. I'm sure they have a specialist bussiness guy, but I belive its devs that run the show.
Tiny Carlos Brutor tribe	Posted - 2005.11.03 11:05:00 - [25] Quote: This was NERVER an idea of a game-developer. This was an idea of the management. I think the management at CCP are the devs, it's not a big opperation. I'm sure they have a specialist bussiness guy, but I belive its devs that run the show. "Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." - Groucho Marx
Tiny Carlos	Posted - 2005.11.03 13:04:00 - [26] Quote: What CCP should have done is make drones act as a single group during large fights. So instead of running AI for 10-15 drones it just runs the AI for one and adds on a "swarm of drones animation", and multiplies all the numbers by how many drones you have. But coding that is more difficult then just dropping the number of drones. And when you target the drones and web one of them, how will the group handle that? Silly idea
Tiny Carlos Brutor tribe	Posted - 2005.11.03 13:04:00 - [27] Quote: What CCP should have done is make drones act as a single group during large fights. So instead of running AI for 10-15 drones it just runs the AI for one and adds on a "swarm of drones animation", and multiplies all the numbers by how many drones you have. But coding that is more difficult then just dropping the number of drones. And when you target the drones and web one of them, how will the group handle that? Silly idea "Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." - Groucho Marx
Tiny Carlos	Posted - 2005.11.03 15:38:00 - [28] Edited by: Tiny Carlos on 03/11/2005 15:39:22 Lol, I talk to the nubs, and they are real, I assure you But yeah, no need to nerf the nubs!
Tiny Carlos Brutor tribe	Posted - 2005.11.03 15:38:00 - [29] Edited by: Tiny Carlos on 03/11/2005 15:39:22 Lol, I talk to the nubs, and they are real, I assure you But yeah, no need to nerf the nubs! "Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." - Groucho Marx
Tiny Carlos	Posted - 2005.11.03 18:33:00 - [30] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Frankly, I don't have a problem with newbies not being able to use drones as effectively as people who have sunk months of training into drones. In fact, this is the way it should be. You can still use drones, and have them be moderately useful. But like guns, missiles, EW, etc, if you want to be really good at them you're looking at long specialization times. ...and this is good, imho. It would be boring if everybody could do everything as well, people who have sunk lots of time with drones should be significantly more effective with them than newbies -- otherwise things become pointless. Newbies can't shoot guns as well as people who have trained spec levels 4-5. This is the same thing. If your ship was getting it's drone DoT cut in half (or worse) you'd wail like a stuck pig, why should the noobies feel any different. It's not like they can use drones that fast anyway, you already need drones lvl 5 for decent drone use, it's just that this gap between drones 5 or not becomes massive.
Tiny Carlos Brutor tribe	Posted - 2005.11.03 18:33:00 - [31] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Frankly, I don't have a problem with newbies not being able to use drones as effectively as people who have sunk months of training into drones. In fact, this is the way it should be. You can still use drones, and have them be moderately useful. But like guns, missiles, EW, etc, if you want to be really good at them you're looking at long specialization times. ...and this is good, imho. It would be boring if everybody could do everything as well, people who have sunk lots of time with drones should be significantly more effective with them than newbies -- otherwise things become pointless. Newbies can't shoot guns as well as people who have trained spec levels 4-5. This is the same thing. If your ship was getting it's drone DoT cut in half (or worse) you'd wail like a stuck pig, why should the noobies feel any different. It's not like they can use drones that fast anyway, you already need drones lvl 5 for decent drone use, it's just that this gap between drones 5 or not becomes massive. "Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." - Groucho Marx
Tiny Carlos	Posted - 2005.11.03 19:25:00 - [32] Quote: Last time I did the math for non-drone ships, it was a reduction of 5-10 points overall using fairly common skill levels that most people train to. Where do you get half or worse? Can you show the calculations that brought you to that conclusion? As I said it's the newbies that suffer worse so.... Imicus the pilot has drones lvl 3 and scout drones lvl whatever, sensible skills for a begining drone user who needs to be training all the little skills you need at the start. This Imicus has (now) a dronebay of 25m3 allowing him with his skills to field 2 mediums and a light giving damage of 22 base (9x2 + 4) with no damage mods untill drones 5 is trained. After the change the ship will have a dronebay of 15m3(25/2 rounded up) allowing at best 1 med and 1 light giving base damage of 13 (9+4). 13/22*100 = 59% of original damage, so the player would need DI lvl 4 to bring it to the level it's at today. This would be 50% needing DI lvl 5 to balance if the drone bay has an even size and dosn't get a rounded up. This is worst for frigs, but hits some cruisers and a BS or two, basicly anything that didn't use more than 5 drones before gets a massive damage cut.
Tiny Carlos Brutor tribe	Posted - 2005.11.03 19:25:00 - [33] Quote: Last time I did the math for non-drone ships, it was a reduction of 5-10 points overall using fairly common skill levels that most people train to. Where do you get half or worse? Can you show the calculations that brought you to that conclusion? As I said it's the newbies that suffer worse so.... Imicus the pilot has drones lvl 3 and scout drones lvl whatever, sensible skills for a begining drone user who needs to be training all the little skills you need at the start. This Imicus has (now) a dronebay of 25m3 allowing him with his skills to field 2 mediums and a light giving damage of 22 base (9x2 + 4) with no damage mods untill drones 5 is trained. After the change the ship will have a dronebay of 15m3(25/2 rounded up) allowing at best 1 med and 1 light giving base damage of 13 (9+4). 13/22*100 = 59% of original damage, so the player would need DI lvl 4 to bring it to the level it's at today. This would be 50% needing DI lvl 5 to balance if the drone bay has an even size and dosn't get a rounded up. This is worst for frigs, but hits some cruisers and a BS or two, basicly anything that didn't use more than 5 drones before gets a massive damage cut. "Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." - Groucho Marx
Tiny Carlos	Posted - 2005.11.05 11:22:00 - [34] Lol, just change the Domi description to combat drone cariier and save the EW bonus for the T2 version Though I think the fact that we've not seen Tux here for a few days, and some of the deeper problems with this way of reducing drone numbers, hints that we'll be seeing a 'Drone changes V2.0' thread soon enough.
Tiny Carlos Brutor tribe	Posted - 2005.11.05 11:22:00 - [35] Lol, just change the Domi description to combat drone cariier and save the EW bonus for the T2 version Though I think the fact that we've not seen Tux here for a few days, and some of the deeper problems with this way of reducing drone numbers, hints that we'll be seeing a 'Drone changes V2.0' thread soon enough. "Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others." - Groucho Marx

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